«Sergio Massa ha planteado un peronismo de centro, más parecido a mi pensamiento que al del kirchnerismo»
Juan Manuel Urtubey: El ex gobernador de Salta explicó su respaldo al candidato de UxP para el balotaje. «Massa está planteando algo mucho más cercano a la sociedad», señaló.
Juan Manuel Urtubey, ex diputado nacional, analizó los efectos inmediatos de la alianza entre Mauricio Macri y el candidato libertario dentro de la fuerza de JxC: «Lo veo más cómodo a Macri con Milei que con los radicales o dirigentes de un porte más social», comentó en Modo Fontevecchia, por Net TV, Radio Perfil (AM 1190) y Radio Amadeus (FM 91.1).
Hace 4 años estabas en la famosa «tercera vía» compuesta por Massa, Pichetto, Schiaretti, Lavagna y vos. Finalmente se fue desarmando. Me resulta coherente que apoyes al candidato de Unión por la Patria. ¿Por qué creés que Schiaretti no lo apoyará? ¿Cómo fue evolucionando esta tercera vía en esto que es hoy?
En la Argentina tenemos una tradición histórica de fijar nuestras posiciones explicando nuestro pasado. Y el gran desafío es saber si estamos dispuestos a tomar una decisión pensando en el futuro y no justificando mi propia historia. Eso sería un cambio sustancial.
Mi opinión negativa de este gobierno es pública, de hecho cuando Massa decidió acompañarlos nuestros caminos se separaron. Pero hoy hay otro contexto y Massa, postulado como presidente, está en segunda vuelta enfrentando a un candidato con un perfil identificado con un modelo de organización nacional muy diferente al que milité toda mi vida.
Es natural que haya una convocatoria de una unidad nacional hecha por un peronista y algo por lo cual peleé toda la vida. Otros dirigentes no lo apoyan porque toman decisiones pensando lo que fue para atrás y eso complica la decisión.
La Argentina está enfrentando una elección que probablemente no marque sólo 4 años, sino los próximos 20. Debo confesar que en su momento llamé a Massa pidiéndole que no vaya con los kirchneristas sino que se quede con ustedes y que, a su vez, nunca voté por un peronista.
Dicho esto, no dejo de sorprenderme de la sociedad y la dirigencia de Córdoba. ¿Por qué creés que Schiaretti, en su momento, se acercó a Macri, rompiendo la tercera vía? ¿No debería estar alejado del pensamiento de Milei?
Hace poco hice un asado en casa para volver a tratar el tema de la tercera vía pero no prosperó por la posición política que en su momento tomaron tanto él como Randazzo y todo su espacio de conformar una fuerza común con Juntos por el Cambio. Eso obviamente me impulsó a correrme porque no creo que esté ahí la salida para la Argentina.
Pensemos en nuestra historia, en lugares como Córdoba siempre fue una referencia de resistencia en contra del puerto. Hay que entender la traumática relación de los gobiernos de Córdoba durante toda época del kirchnerismo en el país. Eso ha calado muy hondo en la roma de decisiones de los dirigentes.
Tenemos que animarnos a hacer un click y empezar a pensar en el futuro, no en el pasado. Precisamente en el futuro, así como siempre he impulsado terceras vías, hoy estoy en un balotaje en donde no existen terceras vías.
Hay dos modelos de país muy diferentesy el debate político me parece sumamente estimulante, aunque algunos tienen miedo. Pero está bueno que los argentinos tomemos en libertad la decisión de qué modelo de organización queremos para nosotros. Y eso es lo que puede cambiar el chip de algunas personas como las que me preguntabas.
Vos siempre fuiste crítico del kirchnerismo. ¿A Massa se lo puede catalogar de, aunque sea, filokirchnerista o es tan crítico como vos y yo?
Estoy acompañando pese a que se conoce mi posición negativa respecto a este gobierno, pero hay que animarse a pensar una nueva etapa. Massa ha planteado un peronismo de centro, más parecido a mi pensamiento que al del kirchnerismo. Hay que entender que esto no se resuelve tirando a nadie por la ventana.
Una de las cosas que ha complicado mucho a la política en los últimos años es que se ha ido alejando de la agenda ciudadana y no se tiene en cuenta lo que plantea la gente. Massa está planteando algo mucho más cercano a la sociedad.
¿Cuál es la diferencia entre el kirchnerismo y el peronismo?
Una de las curiosidades que tuvo el peronismo en su propia génesis fue no apelar a la construcción desde la lucha de clases. Trabajó desde la integración y la movilidad social, pero no desde la lucha de clases, que nunca tuvo lugar en la lógica peronista pero sí en la kirchnerista. En el kirchnerismo se ha construido poder desde la dialéctica de esa lucha de clases, y eso no tiene nada que ver con nuestra historia peronista.
Alejandro Gomel: Este Macri de hoy, aliado y trabajando fuertemente con Milei, ¿te llama la atención o lo esperabas?
No me sorprende en absoluto, tiene que ver con su posición ideológica. Lo veo más cómodo a Macri con Milei que con los radicales o dirigentes de un porte más social. No lo planteó con tono descalificativo, es alguien que piensa distinto.
AG: ¿El radicalismo puede volver al radicalismo alejándose de Macri?
Es una excelente oportunidad, esperemos que suceda.
El déficit fiscal en el ojo de la tormenta
Fernando Meaños: Usted ha tenido responsabilidades ejecutivas y aspiraciones presidenciales. A lo largo de las distintas variantes del peronismo se ha gastado más de lo que ingresó.
¿Qué ruido le hace la llegada de Milei con lo que tiene que ver con la situación fiscal del país? ¿Es la oportunidad para que el peronismo ponga como tema económico central la discusión fiscal?
No sólo desde lo económico sino desde otros aspectos es que me parece positivo este debate que plantea. Es estimulante que podamos discutir si este modelo de organización social es algo heredado o algo que queremos tener. Necesitamos este tipo de tensiones para ponernos en crisis y que podamos tomar decisiones.
El peronismo no es sinónimo de déficit fiscal, pero sí lo ha sido en estos últimos gobiernos. En definitiva creo que el tema del déficit fiscal no es una cuestión ideológica sino de administración. es práctico. No podemos gastar más de lo que tenemos.
Los dirigentes políticos, aparte de explicar la importancia de mantener derechos, debemos ver de qué manera garantizamos que la salud sea efectivamente para todos, al igual que la educación. Estaría bueno que este tipo de tensiones nos ayuden a tener un mejor Estado.
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